montly.musing:girl.gamers.

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I actually read this earlier today. I don't really visit Destructoid much, so I didn't even realize that you wrote there until that point (you mentioned to me you wrote on a blog way back when I posted about that sprite stuff but I never put it together lol).

I actually thought it was one of the best things about the entire situation. I can't pretend to know how female gamers feel about a lot of these issues, but I don't know how you could have better articulated your point and I completely agree with it. I was actually working on this A to Z guide to gamers and was surprised that I had written a few things that meshed with your overall argument, although my points aren't as well fleshed out (although given the nature of it, I suppose on my end it's not totally necessary).

Very nice job with this.
[this is good]
How in the bloody hell does this only have 24 diggs?
Hey Tony, thanks a lot for your support. It's a rough subject with a lot of unanswered questions but I'm glad that people enjoyed reading it regardless.
[this is good]
Thats an excellent article. While the majority of women in gaming might perhaps be as you described, there are plenty of role models out there. One of my good friends back in the old Tekken Tag Tournament days was one of the best female players in the nation (Sushi from Zaibatsu), even beating out the top female Korean TTT player back in early 2001 or so.

Another mentionable role models include Becky "Aktrez" Young (youtube link) who if I remember correctly, started Girls Entertainment, and frequently appears on Attack of the Show as a guest. She does alot of advocating for female gamers.

I don't mean to name drop, but more over I just wanted to pump up the more positive / active side on female gaming. Just my two cents :)
[this is good]
I really liked how this was written. You fleshed out some of the stuff I already think in a great way.
Thanks for the compliments on the article, Patapete. I'm hopeful that there are righteous female role models out there for women gamers. I'm also very familiar with Becky 'Aktrez' Young, and unfortunately we sit on different sides of the fence on this issue. She jumped in on the discussion about one hundred comments down in the post on Destructoid, and while I know her intentions are goodwilled and she has all the best intentions, she thinks the above issue should not be criticized and supports it.
I'm not even sure the amount of female game players out there that do this are anywhere near the majority. I'd have to guess based on how things usually play out in other mediums, hobbies and on the Internet in general that these women are a minority that just happens to be extremely noticeable due to what they do.

We have no real way of knowing what types of people visit these sites unless they fill out largely optional fields when registering or simply tell people. I have to imagine a good deal of female gamers make no real attempt to do this and I have to imagine that a good deal of them also would rather not disclose their gender simply because of the attention it can garner. That is a problem in and of itself (and could be debated on and on as well), but it's definitely something that happens on some level.

So beyond that, you're kind of stuck searching the Internet out for these things. And I have to say that when I go to sites aimed at any bracket, there is always a significant population of women that simply do what they do because they like. And sure, some of them want to share this (see cosplay on sites like theotaku.com, where they have several picture sharing options, blogs, etc), but that's completely normal because they enjoy what they're doing. This is distinctly different from forcing "sex kitten" positions with controllers.

It's pretty clear by sheer statistics that most people who are going to bother to visit these sites are males, the ones who run these sites are males, etc. And like with anything else, there are some girls that know they can get somewhere with their looks based simply upon these concepts. And in that climate, if a girl does something like this a huge portion of males are going to react in what has been deemed the "obvious" way. These girls aren't stupid, they know they're manipulating things to a certain degree and in some senses I don't know how much I can blame them. At the same time, it obviously does a lot to discredit those women out there that don't do these things.

I'm not a woman, so I can't pretend to know every aspect of this. At the same time, I think males have to step up and take some level of accountability for these things. Maybe a majority of males don't react in the "expected" sex hungry way. I have no way to tell that one way or the other; all I know is I don't. A discussion about this sort of thing will always lead to some someone out there thinking they're helping the debate by saying it's "hotter" when a girl just likes games and doesn't flaunt like "grrl gamers" do, but that doesn't further the debate and it's simply irrelevant to the actual issue at hand.

Unfortunately, as with anything, the ones that will get attention are probably the ones that fit into the more "negative" side of the spectrum. These girls push themselves as objects because they know they'll be objectified because many males are going to react accordingly.

The problem there, to me, is that these things happen even if the girl isn't looking for it. There are female developers and PR people out there and the second they appear in a video or in a picture there's instantaneously groups that are picking out if she's attractive or not. I couldn't believe some of the comments people would post about this woman, yet I've never seen a picture of her that wasn't in pretty normal clothing with no real attempt to show off anything. Yet here we are, where posts about her comments on Assassin's Creed debased into something more suited for a Maxim chat room and fan sites popped up. Many, many places played off of this too; it's extremely difficult to find anything that doesn't reference her being "beautiful". Perhaps Ubisoft knew this in putting her out there, but I have no idea... anything beyond what I can read online is just presupposition.

So I guess is that it's a long road. I have no real point here, I'm kind of just going on and on lol.
Wow Tony! What a long comment!

Theses women are certainly not the majority, however they're certainly the ones who get the most attention. Of course this situation falls into a larger scope of the things you mentioned. The fact that the default user of the Internet is male, white, and straight. The fact that objectification of one's looks or body has become a means honorable of 'talent' in this consumerist society. The fact that these themes spread across all facets of the media, from Television, to Film, to sports. I'm disappointed that some of the commentors weren't open to a critical position on the matter, and their best solution was "It's already happening everywhere, so why fight it?"

I have more to say, but I'm thinking of writing an afterwards to all this sometime later this week as a follow up to a lot of the discussion that went on in my post. But thank you for the additional insight in the meantime!


"Wow Tony! What a long comment!"

Sorry about that lol. Anyway that's awesome and I look forward to your addition article on it. I'm glad to see features on gaming sites that are actually, you know, thoughtful. :P
Thats unfortunate. I just had to read through that page in its entirety again to take it all into context before replying here. I won't trudge through the topic here, as all of the strong points have been addressed for the most part.

My question for you is: what will you do now? Has this changed / improved your perspective on your original viewpoint?
I liked this piece but every time I try to praise it the words somehow turn into a not so subtle jab against Anthony's complete lack of objectivity or viable future in games writing.

Sorry tiff, but at least I didn't mention his chronic inability to connect with women or his almost guaranteed lack of sexual prowess owing to inexperience, right?

I at least win points there, huh?


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